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Polanski
11-30-2011, 03:16 PM
Hi there,

I have got one (or maybe two) questions:
I´m a Cinema4D / Vray user and very upset at the moment about the long rendertimes, freezing viewport, no multitasking etc. (right now I´m waiting again for a tiny picture...) I tested the new Keysot the other day and I must say: it´s quite cool. Fast and the pictures look great. But it is quite limited. No lights, no passes, no color mapping. Some questions: is there a something like color mapping in Bunkspeed? Can I save separate channels for each object in the scene? Will there be a HDR-LightStudio Plugin in the future? What are the advantages compared to Keyshot?

And another one:

I´m testing the RTT-Deltapix at the moment. It´s Punkspeed, isn´t it? I installed RTT, then Bunkspeed. Bunkspeed crashed a lot, so I deinstalled RTT. Now it isn´t working at all. I´m sure it´s my fault but what´s the problem?

Cheers, Polanski

david.randle
12-01-2011, 10:03 PM
Hi Polanski -

They big difference to understand when comparing renderers is speed vs. quality. There are many renderers out there, but what you need to understand is that they are compromises. Keyshot which is built on the same technology as HyperShot, is an extremely fast renderer but the compromise is lack of lighting control and quality (mostly GI artifacts). You will find lighting solution that it simply cannot calculate (like most of the images on our homepage). It is also only CPU accellerated. All our products reduce compromises because of the additional control you have in terms of lighting but more importantly, the iray render engine is designed to help you achieve the best quality possible regardless of the lighting complexity without any setting at all. This consistency is necessary especially when animating. It is also GPU or CPU accellerated, meaning that with the right hardware, you can not only achieve higher quality and more consistent results, but you can get those results faster than any CPU could ever offer.

As far as color mapping, i think you're asking about a clown pass where every part is assigned a unique flat color. If this is the case, then yes, that is available in our Pro Suite. Undertand at the moment that it is only effecitve on light geometry ATM but we are working on a fix for that right now. HDR-Light Studio integration is planned. You can save out your object separate from the background using an alpha channel. This option is available when you render to .tiff.

DeltaPix is a reskinned version of our Pro Suite with some feature differences. Your install issues are a bit surprising although not shocking. DeltaPix and ProSuite were never designed to be installed together. In our tests they played nicely but as its not an advertised solution, there could be something going on. You're best off at this stage to uninstall ProSuite and DeltaPix entirely, then reinstall just ProSuite OR DeltaPix, whichever you were more keen on evaluating.

Hope this helps

Polanski
12-02-2011, 08:09 AM
Hallo David,

thank you, that helps. As far as color mapping, Im not asking about the clown pass but about "Color mapping (also called tone mapping) can be used to apply color transformations on the final image colors. Sometimes an image can contain a higher range of colors that can be displayed on a computer screen. Color mapping has the task of re-mapping the image values to be suitable for display purposes." It happens during the calculation, so it is not a post effect at all (which i could achieve in Photoshop also) There are different models like Linear / Reinhard /Exponential etc. It dramatically influences the results (in Vray for example) I think there is something like "crush whites" and "push blacks" (or something like that) in the camera settings. Is Linear Workflow supported by iRay anyway? iRay is new to me... I mean The crucial question is: is Bunkspeed and iray "professional" enough compared to VRAY for example? Or is it a compromise between speed&costs / quality. Its very unusual for me that there are no quality settings at all. Not even simple and basic things like antialiasing or ambient occlusion. If your answer is YES, it would make me very happy and i will definitvely use it for all my product stuff. ;-) For architecture VRAY seems to be still much better. Isnt it?

Regards
Polanski

david.randle
12-05-2011, 10:49 PM
Polanski -

Color mapping as defined by you is not currently available in iray and therefore not in our products. I'm sure its on their list however so would imagine it will be available in the future. As far as your other question on Pro vs vray, yes, ofcourse its a compromise. The compromise it going to be between features/flexibiliy vs. knowledge/training. If you're already a vray expert and know your way around then you can achieve similar results in probably about the same amount of time as Pro depending on what hardware you have. If you're not already an expert, then you need to factor in what its going to take to learn vray enough to be able to create comparative results to what Pro does with no settings. Again, we don't put ourselves in the same bucket as vray....if you can accept the fact that no settings doesn't mean sacrifice in quality (because thats what iray is all about), then i think you will find that you could replace many of your product and architectural shots with Pro. I don't know what level of work you put out either so i'm going out on a limb here. BTW: antialiasing is automatically handled by iray and as it is a full Global Illumination solution there are no Ambient Occlusion adjustments.

Again, i hope this info helps. I think you could benefit by having Pro in your toolbox with the understanding that it can probably make most of your work a little less time consuming.

Polanski
12-06-2011, 11:44 AM
Hallo David

yes, I think you are right. A combination of several tools will be the best solution. I made a quick Bunkspeed render test yesterday. And the result is quite good, I think. I would post it, but i dont know how, to be honest... And its as you say: it is less time consuming and a lot of fun too. My last question: do you know VRED (of course you do). Can you tell me why it is so extremely expensive? 15.000 Euro for the Photo and 25.000 (sic!) for the Pro version.

Polanski

david.randle
12-06-2011, 05:06 PM
Ok, i'm glad we're seeing eye to eye now...

As far as posting images in the forum, right now the attachment system isn't working and we are trying to fix it. for now you have to use the traditional method which is to host the image on another site and embed a link to that image in the post by clicking the image icon in the post toolbar.

With regard to VRED...i'm not sure why its so pricey. All i know is that it was made to compete with RTT DeltaGen which is also a pricey piece of software but does a lot. Its really meant for Design engineering not just visualization. As far a Photo...i think they believe they have a really unique product but in reality, its just a much more expensive version of Showcase. Their raytracer certainly is designed for fast performance and to match their raster engine but falls down when trying to make a photo replacement.

You're certainly doing your research out there!

Talk soon

blitz
01-09-2012, 03:42 PM
Polanski -

Color mapping as defined by you is not currently available in iray and therefore not in our products. I'm sure its on their list however so would imagine it will be available in the future. As far as your other question on Pro vs vray, yes, ofcourse its a compromise. The compromise it going to be between features/flexibiliy vs. knowledge/training. If you're already a vray expert and know your way around then you can achieve similar results in probably about the same amount of time as Pro depending on what hardware you have. If you're not already an expert, then you need to factor in what its going to take to learn vray enough to be able to create comparative results to what Pro does with no settings. Again, we don't put ourselves in the same bucket as vray....if you can accept the fact that no settings doesn't mean sacrifice in quality (because thats what iray is all about), then i think you will find that you could replace many of your product and architectural shots with Pro. I don't know what level of work you put out either so i'm going out on a limb here. BTW: antialiasing is automatically handled by iray and as it is a full Global Illumination solution there are no Ambient Occlusion adjustments.

Again, i hope this info helps. I think you could benefit by having Pro in your toolbox with the understanding that it can probably make most of your work a little less time consuming.

I myself came from years of using v-ray. I would consider myself a v-ray expert.

When comparing speed and quality on both bunkspeed and v-ray platforms, bunkspeed wins hands down. With v-ray you are confined to one or two processors locally, or up to 10 slaves to created a distributed render... also the more slaves you add, the more overhead is required to manage the render. This is non-linear scalability of rendering power. This rendering power still cannot compete with bunkspeed running locally using two or more nvidia based video cards. Not to mention when you compare anti-aliasing on both platforms, vray really slows down when you increase the anti-aliasing samples. RTT is an improvement over the standard v-ray engine but not all v-ray materials are supported by RTT. I would know because I could not do dispersion in diamonds with RTT. RTT is very limited in what kind of materials you can use. This is not the case with bunkspeed.

Just to give you a comparison, when I render a 1500x1500 diamond ring with over 80 diamonds, it takes v-ray 45 minutes to render a satisfactory render on 3 machines doing distributed render. Bunkspeed on my single machine using GPU's to render with 2xnvidia GTX 570's takes 10 minutes to render the same scene and the quality is better (perfect anti-aliasing, depth of field, and unlimited reflective/refractive bounces).

One feature I really miss that exists in both v-ray and Maxwell render is lens effects glares and flares. Bunkspeed Shot doesn't have this feature. What would make glares and flares more powerful than what v-ray and Maxwell render have is the ability to isolate flares and glares coming from specific objects in the scene, or tag flaring and glaring on a per material basis. This way you can control where the flares and glares come from. In my application for diamond rings, I would want glares and flares coming from diamonds and metal materials, but not from a bright white shiny floor.

-Michael

andy
01-09-2012, 05:02 PM
I'm surprised, being a vray expert, that you don't include vrayRT in your comparison. It now includes GPU and even includes some features that Bunkspeed does not. There's a bit of give and take so you have to compare carefully. Carpaint, hair, and the ability to composite each light separately? Of course, the learning curve is a bit more difficult, and if you want it to be at it's best you'll probably want Max too so your cost goes up. But I did comparisons of the GPU version when it was in beta (I don't have it at my current job) and render times were similar when using GPU. That wasn't comparing with the newer bunkspeed, but it was also an older version of VrayRT. My point is, they are pretty comparable in speed if you use it correctly. But unless rendering/animating is your primary role, then Bunkspeed will probably save you much more time spent learning how to get what you need in the time you need it. Bunkspeed is a bit more straight forward in that respect.

Regarding Tone Mapping though: Bunkspeed/iRay is ONLY a linear workflow. If you want to adjust the image, render to 32bit and adjust it afterward. You are able to adjust the gamma in Shot, just as you are in the color mapping section of Vray, but crushing blacks and whites damages the image so you'll want to be doing that in Post. In order to repeat any adjustments you make, use adjustment layers in Photoshop and you can duplicate adjustments to other documents....If you need them to be the same. Your 32bit images looks washed out in Photoshop you say? That's because it's still linear. Apply an exposure adjustment layer to it and start with gamma .5454 in order to "de-linearize" it, bringing it back to gamma 2.2. Then make whatever other adjustments you want. Crush blacks, brighten whites, adjust your images total curve.

Hopefully they add 32bit exr to animations soon so we can render to 32bit images and keep file sizes reasonable. hdr is not the most efficient wrapper and can really blow up your hard drive if you need 5000 frames x 40MB.

blitz
01-09-2012, 09:29 PM
I'm surprised, being a vray expert, that you don't include vrayRT in your comparison. It now includes GPU and even includes some features that Bunkspeed does not. There's a bit of give and take so you have to compare carefully. Carpaint, hair, and the ability to composite each light separately? Of course, the learning curve is a bit more difficult, and if you want it to be at it's best you'll probably want Max too so your cost goes up. But I did comparisons of the GPU version when it was in beta (I don't have it at my current job) and render times were similar when using GPU. That wasn't comparing with the newer bunkspeed, but it was also an older version of VrayRT. My point is, they are pretty comparable in speed if you use it correctly. But unless rendering/animating is your primary role, then Bunkspeed will probably save you much more time spent learning how to get what you need in the time you need it. Bunkspeed is a bit more straight forward in that respect.

I think I worded it wrong. VrayRT did not work for me because vray's transparent shader with dispersion turned on did not work in vrayrt, so I had to resort the vray's regular CPU-based render engine. When vrayRT did work it was fast - probably comparable to bunkspeed.

andy
01-10-2012, 01:22 PM
Sure, you'll find different features work better in different versions. In VrayRT you get a better metal fleck shader. In Bunkspeed you get physically correct dispersion. There are trade-offs with Every render I've ever come across. If you are working with jewelry, you'll probably want dispersion.
One thing I definitely enjoyed about Vray was that they create a new build Every night (sometimes even weekends) for users that don't mind using beta. Their beta is usually pretty rock solid. And they also share a list of feature requests, update it nightly with what was changed/fixed/discovered (for the beta users only of course). And Vlado always got back to me on when I could expect him to work on a feature/bug, and when I could get the file. That's good service.

The downside to Vray is of course that you have to learn 3dsMax as well, if you want all of the features. I'm pretty sure the other versions will always be just a hair behind in terms of how solid the UI is implemented into the system. I've never tried it for Maya, but I know there are limitations in the way Rhino allows the connection.

JohnG
01-10-2012, 04:00 PM
In VrayRT you get a better metal fleck shader..


http://blog.irayrender.com/post/12202139302/let-there-be-some-metallic-flakes

I think this is only available in the Bunkspeed Drive product. It seems to be similar to VRay's metallic paint material. I assume its also available to Max users who use iRay.

andy
01-11-2012, 01:38 PM
The link doesn't work right now, but I've seen it before and checked out the google cached page. My comment still stand anyway. I still think the one in Vray produced better results (and is also available right now to all).
In Vray You can change it so much that you can actually see a Shape to the flake. Granted, the examples on the dev blog might just be showing a proof of concept.

And if it's only in Drive, then bleh. People use metallic flake paint in more than just painting cars.

JohnG
01-11-2012, 02:55 PM
And if it's only in Drive, then bleh. People use metallic flake paint in more than just painting cars.

Very true, hopefully this material will find its way into all the Bunkspeed products sooner rather than later.

david.randle
01-11-2012, 05:00 PM
I can say that materials are a theme for us this year so hang tight...